Democrats Discuss Faith on CNN

Yesterday in Washington and on CNN, Democratic candidates discussed their faith.

The responses are quite lengthy, so they’ll be after the jump. Well worth talking about, though.

Topics include: povery, abortion, evolution, executive pay, gay marriage, Israel and Palestine, Hillary Clinton on faith in regards to her marital problems, and many more topics.

In order, Edwards, Obama, Clinton, Biden, Richardson, Dodd, and Kucinich all spoke.

Obviously all transcripts are thanks to CNN.

First was Edwards, who was first asked about evolution:

O’BRIEN: There was quite a little dustup that Republicans had in their debate over the question of evolution. So I’ll put the same question to you. Do you believe in evolution or do you believe in creationism?

JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I believe in evolution.

O’BRIEN: What do you say to all the people — and there are millions of people who go to church every Sunday and who are told very clearly by their pastors that, in fact, the Earth was created in six days, that it’s about creationism? Are those people wrong? Are their pastors wrong?

EDWARDS: No. First of all, I grew up in the church and I grew up as a Southern Baptist, was baptized in the Baptist Church when I was very young, a teenager at the time. And I was taught many of the same things. And I think it’s perfectly possible to make our faith, my faith belief system consistent with a recognition that there is real science out there and scientific evidence of evolution. I don’t think those things are inconsistent. I think a belief in God and a belief in Christ, in my case, is not in any way inconsistent with that.

O’BRIEN: There are some people who say, well, it’s actually — isn’t it mutually exclusive? I mean, either man was created by, you know, from Adam’s rib or, in fact, that man came evolution-wise from apes? Aren’t the two mutually exclusive?

EDWARDS: No, I don’t think they are. Because the hand of God was in every step of what’s happened with man. The hand of God today is in every step of what happens with me and every human being that exists on this planet.

On Gay Marriage:

O’BRIEN: Do you think homosexuals have the right to be married?

EDWARDS: No. Not personally. Now you’re asking about me personally. But I think there’s a difference between my belief system and what the responsibilities of the president of the United States are. It is the reason we have separation of church and state. And there are very good people, including some people that I’m very close to me, my daughter who is sitting in the front row here tonight, feels very differently about this issue. And I have huge respect for those who have a different view about this.

So I think we have to be very careful about ensuring that the president of the United States is not using his belief system and imposing that belief system on the rest of the country. So what that…

O’BRIEN: But if it’s…

EDWARDS: So what that — I’m sorry. All I was going to say is I think what that means in this case is the substantive rights that go with partnerships, civil unions, for example, and all the subsequent rights that go with that, should be recognized in this country, at least in my judgment, should be recognized. And I think it is not the role of the federal government to tell either faith-based institutions, churches, synagogues, what they should or should not recognize. Nor should the federal government be telling states what they should recognize.

O’BRIEN: If you think something is morally wrong, though, you morally disagree with it, as president of the United States, don’t you have a duty to go with your moral belief?

EDWARDS: No, I think that, first of all, my faith, my belief in Christ plays an enormous role in the way I view the world. But I think I also understand the distinction between my job as president of the United States, my responsibility to be respectful of and to embrace all faith beliefs in this country because we have many faith beliefs in America. And for that matter we have many faith beliefs in the world. And I think one of the problems that we’ve gotten into is some identification of the president of the United States with a particular faith belief as opposed to showing great respect for all faith beliefs.

Edwards on whether the US is a Christian nation:

EDWARDS: No, I think this is a nation — I mean I’m a Christian; there are lots of Christians in United States of America. I mean, I have a deep and abiding love for my Lord, Jesus Christ, but that doesn’t mean that those who come from the Jewish faith, those who come from the Muslim faith, those who come from — those who don’t believe in the existence of God at all, that they don’t — that they’re not entitled to have their beliefs respected. They’re absolutely entitled to have their beliefs respected. It is one of the basis for which our democracy was founded.

Edwards on the Poor:

EDWARDS: Well, let me first say thank you to you, Jim, and to Sojourners for its great leadership on this, what I think is a great moral issue facing this country today and I would add to that, this the is the cause of my life. It is the reason after the last election that I went back to the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, started a poverty center. It is the reason I’ve traveled around the world doing humanitarian work.

It is the reason I help lead minimum wage campaigns in six states. It’s the reason I’ve helped organize thousands of workers in the unions. And before we ever got in politic, it’s the reason that I was involved with urban ministries, faith-based groups, doing work to help the poor and one of the reasons that Elizabeth and I did a lot of other things, starting after school centers for kids who need playgrounds, libraries, et cetera.

So I think there’s a very long and consistent pattern of this being the cause of my life. And I might add everything I can do, everything in my power that I’m able to do, I will do to drive the issue of poverty in this presidential campaign so that everyone is required to talk about it. Because I think it is the great moral issue of our time. I’ve committed, actually, to an agenda of eliminating poverty over the next 30 years.

I think it’s a completely achievable agenda. There are lots of components to that agenda. Making work pay, having a living wage, making sure that workers can organize themselves into unions, having decent housing for families that don’t have it, having true universal health care, helping kids be able to go to college, which is why I started a college for everyone program for kids in a very poor section of eastern North Carolina. And I believe this is an agenda that should be the agenda — one of the agendas — part of the agenda of the president of the United States, so there’s not much doubt about where I am on this issue.

I have respect for my colleagues who are running for the presidency, but I will say this is not an issue — and I say this to everyone in the audience. This is not an issue that I just talk about when I come to you. This is an issue I talk about all over America in front of all kinds of audiences because it’s part of who I am. It’s who I am as a human being. And I will say this. This is such a part of my life that whatever happens in this presidential campaign, as long as I am alive and breathing, I will be out there fighting with everything I have to help the poor in this country. I can promise you that.

Edwards on Prayer and Faith in his Life:

EDWARDS: Good, good. Let me — some would argue we sometimes have trouble telling the difference, right? I can tell you that it is a part of my daily prayer to, when I pray, to ask the Lord to give me the strength to see the difference between what I want to do and what he wants me to do, and to give me the strength to do his will and not my will. And those things are in conflict on a regular basis in every human being on the planet, and I think it’s a huge challenge for all of us to try to draw that distinction.

I can tell you that I pray daily. I’ve been through a faith journey in my life, you know? I’ll be the first to admit that. I grew up in the Baptist church. I was baptized in the Baptist church, personal strong faith when I was young. I strayed away from the Lord for a period of time, and then came back, in my adulthood, and my faith came roaring back during some crises that my own family was faced with.

And I can tell you, it is prayer that played a huge role in my survival through that. You know, when Elizabeth and I lost our son, we were nonfunctional for some period of time. And it was the Lord that got me through that. And the same thing is true when Elizabeth was diagnosed with cancer and then re-diagnosed more recently.

But faith — I mean, not only my faith, but prayer’s played a huge role in my life. It does every single day; it’s what gives me strength to keep going.

Edwards on Katrina and New Orleans:

EDWARDS: Well, let me say, first of all, this cause of New Orleans is also very personal to me, because you may know that I announced my campaign from the Ninth Ward of New Orleans. I took 700 college kids down to work during their spring break in New Orleans a little over a year ago. And I’ve been to New Orleans and to Louisiana repeatedly since the hurricane hit, including just a few weeks ago.

The single biggest thing to be done is the president of the United States needs to put one person, a very high-level competent person in the White House, in charge of New Orleans. And that person — the president should say to that person, “I want you in my office every morning telling me what you did in New Orleans yesterday.” And the next day say, “I want you in my office telling me what you did yesterday. I’m not interested in what you’re going to do six months from now; I want to know what you did yesterday. And I want to know what’s happening on the ground,” the president, “what’s happening on the ground every single day.”

What has happened in New Orleans is a national embarrassment. All of us should be embarrassed by it. And it’s clear the problem will still exist to a very large extent for the next president. It’s something that I will personally commit to making a priority.

Edwards on his biggest sin:

O’BRIEN: What is the biggest sin you’ve ever committed? Are you willing — are you willing to say? You can take a pass, sir, as you know. ….

EDWARDS: I’d have a very hard time telling you one thing, one specific sin.

If I’ve had a day — I turn 54 years old this Sunday — and if I’ve had a day in my 54 years where I haven’t sinned multiple times, I would be amazed. I believe I have. I sin every single day. We are all sinners. We all fall short, which is why we have to ask for forgiveness from the Lord. I can’t — to try to identify one particular sin that was worse or more extreme than the
others, the list is too long.

Obama was up next, and began with being asked about God and good and evil in wartime:

O’BRIEN: Do you think that God takes sides in a war? For example, in the war on terror, is God on the side of U.S. troops, would you say?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I always remember Abraham Lincoln, when, during the Civil War, he said, “We shouldn’t be asking whose side God is on, but whether we’re on his side.” And I think that’s the question that all of us have to ask ourselves during any battle that’s taking place, whether it’s political or military, is, are we following his dictates? Are we advancing the causes of justice and freedom? Are we our brother’s keeper, our sister’s keeper? And that’s how I measure whether what we’re doing is right.

O’BRIEN: The president talks a lot, as you know, about sort of good versus evil in war. Do you agree with that?

OBAMA: Well, I do think there’s evil in the world. I think that, when planes crash into buildings and kill innocents, there’s evil there. I think violence and cruelty, wherever it’s perpetrated, expresses evil in the world. And I think that all of us have an obligation to speak to that and act against that forcefully.

Now, there have been times in our history where that requires that we take up arms. I think that the Civil War was a just war. I believe that defeating fascism and ensuring that Europe was liberated was the right thing to do.

What was also interesting about Lincoln, though, during the course of the Civil War, was his recognition that simply because we’ve engaged in something just doesn’t mean that there aren’t times where we may act unjustly. Abu Ghraib obviously is something that all of us should be ashamed for, even if you were supportive of a war. I believe Guantanamo, the decision to detain people without charges, is unjust.

And so the danger of using good versus evil in the context of war is it may lead us to be not as critical as we should be about our own actions.

And that’s something that I’m very wary about.

Obama on Israel and Palestine:

O’BRIEN: You have been very clear in your support of Israel. Do you think the Palestinians and the occupied territories are being treated morally, and fairly, and justly by the Israelis?

OBAMA: I believe that the Israelis want peace, and they want security. And oftentimes, in the midst of achieving security, there have been times when there’s no doubt that Palestinians have been placed in situations that we wouldn’t want our own families to be placed in.

Israelis have been killed. They’ve got bombs flying into their territories right now. And we would expect them to act appropriately in defending themselves.

So when I look at the situation in the Middle East — and this is true in other conflicts around the world — the question I ask myself — and this is where I do think faith comes in — is, is there a way for us to reconcile the claims of both sides of the conflict in a way that leads to resolution and a better life for all people?

And that, I think, is something that can be achieved, but it’s going to require some soul-searching on the Palestinian side. They have to recognize Israel’s right to exist; they have to renounce violence and terrorism as a tool to achieve their political ends; they have to abide by agreements. In that context, I think the Israelis will gladly say, “Let’s move forward negotiations that would allow them to live side by side with the Palestinians in peace and security.”

But, you know, we are so far from that right now, partly because, when your brothers or sisters have been killed in a suicide bombing, when you feel that you’ve been oppressed or treated unjustly, it’s very hard to get out of that immediate anger and seek reconciliation.

And that’s where I think faith can inform what we do: Faith can say, forgive someone who has treated us unjustly. Faith can say that, regardless of what’s happened in the past, there’s a brighter future ahead. And that’s the kind of faith that I think has to inform, not just our international policies, but also domestic policies, as well.

Obama on Poverty:

WALLIS: As you know from your organizing days, the poor are trapped in poverty, but they’re also trapped in our debate over poverty, both sides blaming the other. You are one who’s called for new ways of doing politics. The old answers aren’t working; they’re failing. If you were the president, what kind of moral and political imagination would you bring to finding some real solutions? And try and give us some specifics.

OBAMA: Well, I think our starting point has to be based on the notion that I just expressed, that I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sister’s keeper, that we are connected as a people, that when, as I said in my speech at the Boston convention, when there’s a child somewhere here in Washington, D.C., who is impoverished in a crumbling school without prospects and hope for the future, then that impoverishes me. If there’s a veteran in Chicago that’s foraging through a dumpster because he’s now homeless because we did not provide him the services that he needed after he served our country, that diminishes all of our patriotism.

So the starting point is that, “I’ve got a stake in other people, and I’ve got a set of responsibilities towards others, not just towards myself,” and that those mutual responsibilities, those obligations, have to express themselves, not just through our churches, and our synagogues, and our mosques, and our temples, not only in our own families, but they have to express themselves through our government. That, I would argue, is part of what created this amazing country that we live in.

We tend to tout our individualism and our self-reliance — and those are important things — but we also arrived at this place because we rose and fell together. And I think it’s that spirit that’s been lost in our politics over the last several years.

So my starting point as president is to restore that sense that we are in this together. That’s the starting point. And faith informs that. My moral commitments to that vision of what Dr. King called a beloved community rose out of my faith.

Now, how do we then realize that faith? How do we make sure that it actually lives, that it’s not just something that we talk about? A couple of things that we have to do is to fix our politics, and we have to get beyond what Dr. King called the “either/or mentality” and embrace “the both/and mentality.” And our politics have exacerbated this notion of either/or.

So we say either people are entirely responsible for their own lot — and this tends to be expressed within Republican circles, but not entirely — pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, act responsibly, act morally, a great emphasis on private morality, or, conversely, that individuals are responsible, society is acting on them, and they are not free agents.

And my attitude — and I think the attitude of every religious leader and scholar that I value and listen to — is that we have these individual responsibilities and these societal responsibilities. And those things aren’t mutually exclusive.

So what does that mean concretely? It means that, in education, a starting point for me in lifting people out of poverty, partly because I am where I am today because of the education that I received, I think, in terms of, what are our government responsibilities? Early childhood education, we know that if we invest a dollar in early childhood education, we get seven dollars back in reduced dropout rates, improved reading scores, reduced delinquency, increased graduation rates.

The reason we don’t make those investments is not because they don’t work; it’s because we lack the political will. We don’t think those children are deserving of a good education, although we won’t say that explicitly. Our actions indicate it. …

So one of my major commitments would be to make sure that we’re expanding early childhood education to everybody who needs it. And by the way, that starts before pre-k, zero to 3.

There’s wonderful programs that I’m going to be putting forward as models for what we can do nationally, where nurses are matched up with at-risk parents, particularly teenage parents, just so that they can be shown, you know, how to provide proper nutrition to their child, how to read to them, how to play with them, how to engage with them so that they are equipped when they get to school. So that would be an example of government action.

At the same time, if we’re going to improve our education system, then we’re going to have to instill in our children a sense of excellence and a sense of delayed gratification. That’s where individual responsibility comes in. And religion speaks to that as well.

Just one other example that I want to use is on the criminal justice system. We have ex-offenders who are coming out of prisons constantly. Thousands each and every day. We’re going to have to make a commitment to provide them a second chance.

There’s a biblical injunction that I see to make sure that… those young men and women — to make sure that those young men and women have an opportunity to right their lives. And that will require a government investment in transitional jobs because, in some cases, the private sector won’t hire people.

So we’ve got to invest in transitional jobs because the private sector may not be willing to initially hire somebody who has got a felon record. We may need to provide them the kinds of job training support they are not currently getting.

The notion that we take away educational programs in the prisons to be tough on crime makes absolutely no sense. And we need to invest in that.

And I have to — I have to say that I’m very proud of the fact that we’ve seen some of my Republican colleagues informed by the evangelical movement embrace this notion of providing second chances. And they’re to be applauded. This is an area where I think we can get past the left and right divide.

Finally, the last thing I just want to — want to point out is on the issue of work and poverty.

One of the things that happened after welfare reform was that we made sure that everybody had to work at some point. Unfortunately, we didn’t lift them out of poverty. We have got a lot of people who work and are still impoverished. And so we’ve got to make work pay. That means that we’ve got to increase the minimum wage

Obama on Executive Pay:

O’BRIEN: But you have one minute left to answer this question. It’s an online question from Sojourners, and we actually are obligated to ask this. They invited online support, and the question came from Reverend T. Randall Smith. He’s a senior pastor at Deer Park United Methodist in Deer Park, Texas.

He asked this: “Executive salaries are increasing by 300 percent in recent years. Ordinary workers’ salaries remain stagnant.”

Specific policies — and you have one minute. How do you address that, haves and have-nots?”

OBAMA: Well, we’ve got a bill in right now that says at minimum, shareholders should take a look at these executive pay scales, and they should be able to vote on whether these are appropriate or not. That I think would provide some constraint.

I also would like to see executives recognize that when they’re getting as much in one day as their average worker is getting in an entire year, that there is a moral element to that. That that’s problematic.

But look, America is a land of success, and that’s terrific. We just want to make sure that people are sharing in the burdens and benefits of this global economy.

Hillary Clinton was on third, and the first question asked of her was about moral responsibility for the Iraq war authorization vote:

O’BRIEN: Mike Gravel said last night that you lack moral judgment because of
your vote on the war in Iraq. You blame President Bush a lot. Do you feel you have is a moral responsibility for your vote?

CLINTON: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think that every vote I take carries with it a moral responsibility, and it is always a challenge to try to arrive at what you think is the right thing to do based on the information and the assessment that you make at a time. And sometimes it turns out that you’re right, and sometimes it doesn’t. But certainly every vote has a moral implication.

You know, we’re debating immigration right now in the Senate. I think that is a highly moral debate as to what we will do as a nation with respect to immigrants. And the faith community has been very involved in that, as they have been with questions of war and questions of poverty, too.

O’BRIEN: You’ve been, though, very reluctant to say “I’m sorry for my vote.” Explain that to me.

CLINTON: Well, what I’ve said is that if I had known then what I know now about how President Bush would use the authority that he was given, I never would have voted to give it to him. So I think that is taking responsibility. And I don’t think you get off the hook.

I think you don’t turn the page by saying that was really an unfortunate outcome. I think you take responsibility and then you move on. And certainly what I’m trying to do now is to figure out how we get out of Iraq and how we get out as soon as possible, bringing our troops out, but trying to encourage through both carrots and sticks the Iraqi government to take responsibility for their own country, and to try to get more vigorous regional and international diplomacy involved as well.

Next up was the most talked about question: Clinton on faith in relation to her marital problems.

O’BRIEN: But I’m going to ask you a delicate question. Infidelity in your marriage was very public. And I have to imagine it was incredibly difficult to deal with. And I would like to know how your faith helped you get through it.

CLINTON: Well, I’m not sure I would have gotten through it without my faith. And, you know, I take my faith very seriously and very personally. And I come from a tradition that is perhaps a little too suspicious of people who wear their faith on their sleeves, so, that a lot of the… the talk about and advertising about faith doesn’t come naturally to me. It is something that — you know, I keep thinking of the Pharisees and all of Sunday school lessons and readings that I had as a child.

But I think your — your faith guides you every day. Certainly, mine does. But, at those moments in time when you’re tested, it — it is absolutely essential that you be grounded in your faith. For some people, being tested leads them to faith. For some people, being tested in cruel and tragic ways leads them away from faith. For me, because I have been tested in ways that are both publicly known and those that are not so well known or not known at all, my faith and the support of my extended faith family, people whom I knew who were literally praying for me in prayer chains, who were prayer warriors for me, and people whom I didn’t know, who I would meet or get a letter from, sustained me through a very difficult time.

But I — I am very grateful that I had a grounding in faith that gave me the courage and the strength to do what I thought was right, regardless of what the world thought. And that’s all one can expect or hope for.

She was next asked what she prays for:

O’BRIEN: What do you ask for? What do you ask God for?

CLINTON: Well, it depends upon the time of day. And, you know, sometimes, I say, oh, lord, why can’t you help me lose weight?

Sometimes — you know, sometimes, it’s, you know, obviously praying for discernment, for wisdom, for strength, for courage, praying for my family and my friends, I mean, praying for people whom I don’t have any personal connection with that I — I hear about, or I know about, or that I’m — I’m struck by.

You know, I — I will tell you, your question sort of prompted this in my head. I was at a Methodist church in Decorah, Iowa. And I was attending Sunday morning service. And I walked in, and I met the pastor, Carol Cress (ph), who welcomed me to her church and her congregation.

And she introduced me to this man from the Congo who the church had taken in as a refugee. And he said that he wanted to ask for my help for the people of the Congo. And he told me about how he had been campaigning for democracy, and he had been thrown in jail, and he had been beaten, and then he had been dragged from the jail by the officials, and he had been hung on a tree and left to die.

And the members of his church rescued him. And he told me this just as I was walking into the sanctuary. And I was just so overcome. And I spent much of the service thinking about and praying about these people in this church in the Congo — I don’t even know where in the Congo — who had saved this man and given him the chance to come and witness to somebody like me.

So, I pray for all kinds of things, some of it, to be honest, trivial and self-serving and all the rest of it.

CLINTON: And, when I do that, I try to say, oh, come on, that’s — you can do better than that.

O’BRIEN: To God or your question?

CLINTON: Well, I say it — I say it to myself … because I assume, you know, that there’s the rolling of eyes going on, that … I certainly can do better than that.

But, you know, somebody — somebody asked me — to go back to one of your earlier questions, somebody asked me if I were a praying person, you know, shortly after we had been in the White House. And, you know, I said yes, I — I had been fortunate. I was raised to pray, you know, as a little girl, you know, saying my prayers at night, saying grace at meals, praying in, you know, church. I see my old friend, my youth minister praying in MYF, our Methodist Youth Fellowship.

And, so, they asked me, well, are you a praying person? And I said, well, you know, fortunately, I — I have always been a praying person. And then I — I’m grateful for that. But, if I had not been a praying person, shortly after coming to the White House, I would have become one in a big hurry.

Clinton was next asked about abortion:

REVEREND JOEL C. HUNTER, NORTHLAND, A CHURCH DISTRIBUTED: Hi, Senator Clinton. Abortion continues to be one of the most hurtful and divisive facts of our nation. I come from the part of the faith community that is very strongly pro-life. I know you’re pro-choice, but you have indicated that you would like to reduce the number of abortions. Could you see yourself, with millions of voters in a pro-life camp, creating a common ground, with the goal ultimately in mind of reducing the decisions for abortion to zero?

CLINTON: Yes. Yes. And that is what I have tried to both talk about and reach out about over the last many years, going back, really, at least 15 years, in talking about abortion being safe, legal, and rare. And, by rare, I mean rare.

And it’s been a challenge, because the pro-life and the pro-choice communities have not really been willing to find much common ground. And I think that is a great failing on all of our parts, because, for me … there are many opportunities to assist young people to make responsible decisions. There is a tremendous educational and public outreach that could be done through churches, through schools, through so much else. But I think it has to be done with an understanding of reaching people where they are today.

We have so many young people who are tremendously influenced by the media culture and by the celebrity culture, and who have a very difficult time trying to sort out the right decisions to make. And I personally believe that the adult society has failed those people. I mean, I think that we have failed them in our churches, our schools, our government. And I certainly think the, you know, free market has failed. We have all failed.

We have left too many children to sort of fend for themselves morally. And, so, I think there is a great opportunity. But it would require sort of a — a leaving at the sides the suspicion and the baggage that comes with people who have very strong, heartfelt feelings. You know, when I first started thinking about this very difficult issue — because it is. It’s a moral issue. And it should not be in any way diminished as a moral issue, no matter which side you’re on, because I have seen cases where I honestly believed that the — the moral choice was very complicated and not so straightforward as to what a young woman, her family, her physician, her pastor should do.

And what concerns me is that there’s been a — a real reluctance for anyone to make a move toward the other side, for fear of being labeled as turning one’s back on the moral dimensions of the issue from either direction. So, I would invite you, and I would be willing to work with you, to see whether there couldn’t be some common ground that one could find.

The last question was about Clinton finding common ground on contentious issues:

MONSIGNOR KEVIN SULLIVAN, CATHOLIC CHARITIES USA: Senator Clinton, just a very simple question. You have spoken a lot about our need to work for the common good. In an age in which there is, oftentimes, narrow and excessive individualism, how will you speak to our country about the need for sacrifice, restraint, when it comes to the critical issues of taxes, gun control, health care, and energy consumption?

CLINTON: Well, Monsignor … you know, as they say in the Senate, I ask consent to expand and extend my remarks.

You know, I — I think that one of the great challenges facing us — and — and I heard both of my friends Senator Edwards and Senator Obama speaking.

And I think you can sense how we are attempting to try to inject faith into policy and also to elicit from people a sense of our common humanity and how we have to be in this together as a nation. And, on every issue you mentioned, there is an opportunity for us to chart a new course. But I know how difficult that is. We can set the vision. We can even work to articulate the goal. But the pathway is extraordinarily complicated because of how we live today and how we think of ourselves in relation to our fellow citizens.

Take health care. I think we could get almost unanimous agreement that having more than 45 million uninsured people, nine million of whom are children, is a moral wrong in America. And I think … we could reach that agreement, and then we would have to start doing the hard work of deciding what we were going to do to make sure that they were not uninsured, because an uninsured person who goes to the hospital is more likely to die than an insured person. I mean, that is a fact.

So, what do we do? We have to build a political consensus. And that requires people giving up a little bit of their own turf, in order to create this common ground.

The same with energy — you know, we can’t keep talking about our dependence on foreign oil, and the need to deal with global warming, and the challenge that it poses to our climate and to God’s creation, and just let business as usual go on. … And that means something has … to be taken away from some people.

Paula Zahn Joe Biden about his faith. The interview began with a discussion of his faith in connection with his personal family tragedy:

ZAHN: You had an enormous tragedy strike your life when you lost your first wife and your daughter in a tragic accident. Did you blame God for your loss?

BIDEN: Well, I have to admit to you, initially, I did. See, I have been raised — born and raised a Catholic. It’s part of my culture, as well as my religious faith. And I found I was — I was really angry. And, for about eight or nine months, I couldn’t understand how that could happen.

But my mom has an expression. Out of everything terrible, something good will happen, if you look hard enough for it, and God sends no cross that you cannot bear. And it took a while, but, with a lot of help and rejuvenation of my faith, I was able to deal with it. And a lot of other people have dealt with things worse than I have.

ZAHN: So, your faith was never tested so badly that you gave up on God? It was tested. You were angry.

BIDEN: Well, I temporarily did. I was angry. I came out, and I can remember — I wish I could say I was a better man, but I remember looking up at the Capitol dome and saying, God, why did you — you know, I was really, really angry.

And it’s one of the only — it’s the only public conversation I have ever had with God. And I’m not proud of it. But — but I was angry.

ZAHN: You say it’s the only public conversation you have ever had with God. I know some candidates are more open about — others about talking about their prayer and — and how they communicate with God. Do you pray every day?

BIDEN: Well, I do. I actually say the rosary every day. But, you know, the thing is, I was raised in a tradition, eight years with the nuns, four years with the priests. We learned a lot about the Pharisees. And we — we worried about those people who — we were taught about the people who only talk to God, and they’re the only ones that know God, and the ones who talk about talking to God.

It’s always been as part of my sort of Irish Catholic culture that — that it was not something that you talked about. It’s something you did. Everything was judged by your deeds. What did you do? Your deeds would speak. As Lincoln said, to paraphrase him, you know, don’t — don’t judge my religion by my words. Judge whether I have religion by my deeds.

Biden next gets an extremely tough question about 9/11:

ZAHN: Let’s move on to the concept of forgiveness, which is key in your religion.

BIDEN: Yes.

ZAHN: When it comes to the 9/11 hijackers, will you ever be capable of forgiving them for what they did?

BIDEN: You know, I wish I were a better Catholic. The answer to — the God’s honest truth is, I have not been able to come to that conclusion yet.

I have forgiven things that have happened to me, but it’s — in a sense, it’s harder to forgive these major, major, major impositions of brutality on humanity. And I find it much more difficult. It’s easier to forgive when you’re hurt. I imagine it’s your experience as well. Hard to forgive when you hurt your child — your child is hurt.

So, I find it counterintuitive, but I have difficulty on forgiving that.

Biden also gets a question that Obama did:

ZAHN: Do you think God takes sides, let’s say, for example…

BIDEN: No.

ZAHN: … in this war in Iraq and in this war on terror?

BIDEN: No, I — I don’t think take — I don’t think God takes sides.

But I do think there is — it’s not moral relativism. I think there’s good and there’s bad. There’s evil and there’s not. Those engaging in the brutal elimination of women and children, suicide bombers, I think God — I think there’s a royal — I think there’s a place in hell for them.

But those who believe that the Sharia should be the law of the land, that — that is, the Koran, you know, their religion, they think God is on their side.

Every country — let’s think how many people have died in the name of God, based on the wars, the religious wars, we have had. So, I think — I think we should pray not that God is on our side, but we’re on God’s side.

The last question for Biden was on faith and politics:

ZAHN: We just heard the co-host of this forum earlier this evening saying that people of faith should never be in the pocket of anybody’s political party, that they should be perceived as the ultimate swing vote. But, historically, a lot of those votes have gone to Republican candidates. Why has that happened?

BIDEN: Well, the truth of the matter is, it hasn’t gone in my faith. Mainstream Protestants and Catholics, up until very recently, have overwhelmingly voted for my party.

And — but I think, look, my dad used to have an expression: Don’t tell me what your values are. Show me your budget. … Show me your deeds. And I think that one of the problems we Democrats have had is, we have not come off as not being people of faith. We have come off as being almost agnostic.

And we are a spiritual nation. We are a nation that was founded upon — the only nation I can think that was founded upon the notion that there is a — a — that there is a God. We hold these truths self-evident, that all men are created equal, et cetera.

And, so, I think, what has happened with the Democratic Party, there’s been this reluctance, in the face of the evangelical, judgmental movement on the far right in the past, of even invoking religion, for fear of being put in the same category. But we’re a spiritual nation. We’re a nation of faith.

Bill Richardson was on next.

Zahn began by asking about Richardson’s Catholicism.

ZAHN: I know you have talked quite openly about your faith and the influence your grandmother had on you. And you said, “My abuelita also made sure I said my prayers in Spanish every night before going to bed.” Do you still pray every day?

RICHARDSON: Yes, I pray. And I consider myself a good Catholic. From my grandmother and my Catholic faith, I believe I have gotten my sense of social justice, which basically is protecting those that are poor, that have been left behind. And I’m inspired policy- wise whenever I am pressed to push legislation like increasing the minimum wage, doing something about child poverty, insuring kids under 5.

I think that’s part of my values. That’s part of my faith. I also believe, Paula, protecting this planet and — and finding ways to — to make sure that we don’t end up in — in a sea of greenhouse gas emissions that are going to destroy God’s creation is also part of a value that I have.

Richardson was next asked about abortion:

ZAHN: And those issues that you have just mentioned are — clearly are in keeping with Catholic teachings. But the — the one big area of division is where you stand on abortion. You are pro- choice. Do you ever worry that, when you meet your maker, you’re going to have to defend yourself?

RICHARDSON: Well, I am comfortable with that decision. I — I don’t like abortions. If I’m president, I will have a national goal to reduce abortions. I believe very strongly that we have got to promote initiatives to reduce abortions, to promote adoptions, to find ways also that we promote sexual education and family planning.

So, I believe this is a matter between a woman and her God. It’s not a matter for politicians to decide. I respect the leadership of the pope and my archbishop, who disagrees with me. But I think he is tolerant of my view, as long as I continue to — to advance policies of social justice as a human being.

And I believe government can be a catalyst, Paula, to initiate that social justice, to stand up for those that have been left behind. I believe, also, as a candidate for president, it’s important that we bring people together, that we heal this country that is deeply divided, that we be optimistic and patriotic about the country. And I believe that’s a matter of values, too.

Richardson was next asked about gay marriage and civil unions:

ZAHN: One of those divisive areas is the area of homosexuality. You are opposed to gay marriage. You have been quoted as saying: “I’m just not there yet. I’m a Catholic. I think marriage is between a man and a woman.” As a Catholic, do you personally think homosexuality is a sin?

RICHARDSON: No. It isn’t a sin.

And, actually, when you look at many gay couples, they’re families. They’re individuals that shouldn’t be discriminated because of sexuality orientation. They love each other. They’re promoting family values of love.

And my view is that I believe in civil unions, protecting against those that are discriminated against, hate — initiatives like hate crimes that — that prevent discrimination of human beings. So, I’m comfortable with that position, too, because I think that…

ZAHN: The pope is not comfortable with that position, Governor Richardson.

RICHARDSON: Well, I know that. And I — I respect the pope very much. And I’m sorry we’re in conflict in some of these issues. But, on the basic values of my church, which is to help those that have been left behind, to be just, to be kind, to think of ourselves as a family, to find values such as healing and ways that we as human beings can can — can work together, I feel very comfortable with what I have done and what my values on those issues are.

The last question to Richardson was about his faith in general:

ZAHN: Do you think much about heaven?

RICHARDSON: Do I think — no, because I live every day in a very full way.

I — I barely think about the next day. But my point is that I pray. I — I’m somebody that believes very strongly in communion. I try to take communion.

You know, my grandmother, my abuelita (ph), used to give me a little Crucifix when I was playing baseball. And she’d put it in my pocket of my baseball uniform. And I used to play with it and thinking it would bring me good luck.

And she said it will bring you good luck. And so I just remember that she very strongly instilled in me the fact that having a special communication with God, having him near you, is something that will help you. And I always keep that.

Senator Dodd was on next, and he was first asked about faith and politics on the trail:

ZAHN: You can’t hit any campaign stop today without a politician talking about their faith. Do you feel the pressure to wear your faith on your sleeve?

DODD: No, I don’t. And I think that can be a mistake. If it’s not natural, if it isn’t something you do regularly, I think you ought to beware. If people sense this is somehow you’re using the language because you think it’s the political thing to do, it will hurt you, in my view. It has to be natural enough.

ZAHN: But don’t you acknowledge it can get you votes?

DODD: Well, I don’t — necessarily get you votes, I think it tells who you are as a person. My spiritual home is the Catholic faith, that’s the faith I was raised in. The church that I attend on Sundays. My wife is a Mormon. And so we’re raising two daughters who have been baptized in the Catholic Church and blessed in the Mormon faith.

And obviously as they grow older, they’re attending both and they’re going to have to form some decisions about that. But the idea, I see it in terms of faith. It informs my decisions, it informs my politics. It doesn’t define them. And that may be a distinction with some people in a sense.

I was raised to believe that you have an obligation. I joined the Peace Corps back in the 1960s. Faith had a lot to do with that. The idea of giving back. I was raised in a family that believed very strongly in that. That this was part of your Catholic social teaching.

You had an obligation to reach out and help other people. So my faith is more along those lines than rather lecturing people about their behavior, although I find the coarseness in our society, the violence on television, on video games, and the like, in music, is something that as a president, I would try and engage the country in more of a conversation about because I worry about what that contributes to and what that leads to in our society.

Dodd was next asked about civil unions and gay rights:

ZAHN: Let’s talk a little bit about the disconnect between being a Catholic and some of your own personal views. Homosexuality. The Catholic Church opposed to it, but you’re in favor of civil unions. Let’s remove the human rights issue part of that equation. Do you think that homosexuals are sinners?

DODD: No, I don’t. And I use this example. I have two wonderful daughters, a 5-year-old and a 2-year-old. They may grow up with a very different sexual orientation than their parents.

How do I want my two daughters treated as adults if they have a different sexual orientation? When it comes to their jobs, their relationships they have, their military service possibly, their retirement.

I think most people, if they ask themselves that question, the question that I’ve asked myself, that my wife and I have asked, I think they come to a very different set of conclusions about how people ought to be treated. And here to make a characterization that someone is a sinner because what I believe is a matter of nature, not environment in the sense is something that ought to be treated differently. My faith believes that people ought to be treated fairly and right, that they ought not be discriminated against or harmed in any way. So I’m comfortable with…

ZAHN: How do you reconcile that with the church’s teachings?

DODD: Well, they’re talking about — some do. I don’t think it’s necessarily as universal as you think. And I don’t necessarily believe in the long run that that’s an act of faith and morals, in a sense. I think it’s a question of how you treat people. How should people be accepted or not accepted? And I don’t think my faith believes that people ought to be discriminated against based on their sexual orientation.

The last question for Dodd was on abortion and the pope:

ZAHN: Do you take communion?

DODD: Yes, I do.

ZAHN: And you are a pro-choice candidate.

DODD: Mm-hmm.

ZAHN: The Catholic Church does not believe in abortion. It views it as murder. How do you reconcile that view with your Catholic upbringing?

DODD: Well, abortion isn’t something that I take any great joy in occurring. I think it ought to be a rare, safe, and legal. That has been my position on it for years. And we ought to be working together on how we reduce the incidence of abortion. Why not do more to help out in terms of expanding the opportunities for adoption, giving people other choices.

We’ve been screaming at each other about abortion now for 34 years. It’s about time, with the law being what it is, that we try and reduce the number of incidents of it, provide the kind of support for families and women so they’re not confronted with only that choice. That hasn’t happened enough, in my view.

ZAHN: The pope was highly critical of some Mexican politicians who were taking Communion and basically wants them banned from taking Communion because of their view on abortion. They also happen to be pro-choice. How would you feel if you were told that you could no longer take Communion because of your views abortion?

DODD: Well, again, I think the pope, as I read it, also backed up a little bit from that. And there are some who have taken that position. Others don’t. I don’t think it’s as universal in that thinking as some would suggest. And again, I have an obligation here as a public official to uphold the Constitution of the United States, the laws of the land here.

I am an American. I’m a Catholic. I’m proud of both of those relationships. But my obligation as a United States senator is to uphold what the law of the land is. And the law of the land under Roe versus Wade allows the people to make that choice.

If that’s the only debate we have, then we don’t get very far on this. If you truly think we ought to have a reduced number of abortions in the country, which I agree with, then why don’t we try to take some steps together despite our differences in opinion on this issue, and do some things that would reduce that from occurring.

Dennis Kucinich was on last. He was first asked about the role of killing in the world today:

ZAHN: Our pleasure. You have been very outspoken about your opposition to the war and have even called for a Department of Peace. Is killing ever justified?

KUCINICH: I know there is theology that says there is, but my approach is this, that I believe that we have an obligation to send forth our truth and our love. And I think that we can create a world where love triumphs and not hate.

And killing is an extension of a type of thinking which always sees the world in warring camps, sees the world in terms of us versus them, whoever they are. I view the world as one. I see the world as interconnected and interdependent.

And I act on that in trying to find ways of promoting peace and social and economic justice, which answers the claims of all people.

The next question for Kucinich was about God and Iraq:

ZAHN: How do you think God views this war on Iraq?

KUCINICH: You know, you answered the question in the intro — you asked the question in the intro, is God on our side? I’d say are we on God’s side? Do we really live the principles that we believe of truth and of social and economic justice, of love?

I mean, these are things that — these are spiritual values. And so I think that a nation such as America which lives its spiritual truths, the spiritual truths that underpin the founding of this country, is a nation that will set war aside, that will beat its swords into plowshares, spears into pruning hooks. And that’s what animates my belief that America can support a Department of Peace and non-violence where we work to make non- violence an organizing principle in our society. Where you take the teachings of Christ, of Gandhi, of Dr. King, and of other religious leaders and you make that part of the everyday practice in America.

Where we address the issues of domestic violence, spousal abuse, child abuse, violence in the schools, racial violence, violence against gays, and all of the symptoms (ph) of our society that show that we are separate from each other and look for ways to address those so that we can heal this country. And the hand I would bring to the White House would be a healing hand.

ZAHN: And, Congressman, given what you’ve just said, then, how do you view the sacrifice of the men and women who’ve already lost their lives in Iraq and those that continue to face death every day?

KUCINICH: Their sacrifices are pure. Their sacrifices are an expression of their love of country. And we should honor all of those who would serve our country and would be willing to put their lives on the line.

However, those who would be president have a higher responsibility never to cause the lives of the men and women who serve this country to be put in jeopardy for anything except the defense of our country. And frankly…

ZAHN: And that’s not what’s happening in this war in Iraq. So are you demeaning their service by saying what you’re saying?

KUCINICH: No, that is not what is happening at all. No, not at all. To the contrary, what I’m saying is that their sacrifice has to be honored under all circumstances. But those who have sent them, sent them not for — not under honorable conditions.

We have — we’re in Iraq based on lies. And, you know, the Bible has a line that says that which is crooked cannot be made straight. Nothing will ever be made straight about our presence in Iraq. We must leave Iraq.

We must bring our troops home. And we must work to achieve a kind of reconciliation with the people of Iraq, with the people of the world and within our own country for — in order to establish truth once again and make that truth the single principle upon which our country is based.

The next question was about the role of faith in campaigns:

ZAHN: Let’s talk about individual truths. Do you think there is too much emphasis on the personal faith of those of you who are running for president?

KUCINICH: I think that it’s important for people to not just talk about their faith, but to live the principles which animate their faith. And I think that when all of us do that, the country will be better served. So I don’t think there could ever be too much emphasis on it. As a matter of fact, I think the founders intended America to be a country which celebrated spiritual principles. They didn’t want church and state to be together. They wanted separation of church and state and I support that.

But separation of church and state was never meant to separate us from spiritual values. Let us live our spiritual values.

The final question to Kucinich was about gay marriage and abortion:

ZAHN: One last question for you, sir, before we have to quit. You talk about living the principles that animate your faith. And yet you are a practicing Catholic and your views on abortion and gay marriage — or gay unions is in direct opposition to what your church teaches. How do you reconcile that?

KUCINICH: Well, actually, we — as president I want to unite this country on the issue of abortion in this way. We need to do everything we can to make abortion less necessary. And we do that through pre-natal care, post-natal care, childcare, universal health care, a living wage, creating circumstances that make it less likely abortion will occur.

I think our nation can be united along that. And with respect to those who happen to be gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, these are God’s children. They should have the same rights. Our Constitution does not provide any — for any differences to be established. Doesn’t provide for a two-tiered system of justice.

Everyone should be equal under the law. So of course I support marriage equality for all.

ZAHN: I have no right to let the interview go on any longer, because we have to hit a commercial break. Congressman Dennis Kucinich, thank you so much for being with us tonight.

KUCINICH: Peace.

So there you have it.