Vice Presidential Debate Liveblog: Sarah Palin v. Joe Biden from Washington University in St. Louis

5:34: Let’s start off with the ridiculous Gwen Ifill controversy. Gwen Ifill, I would argue, is the second best moderator possible behind Lehrer. She’s the best choice to get the Meet the Press Chair. And Tim Russert, let’s not forget, was a Democratic operative before moving to the news side; few people would argue that his past work disqualified him from being a netural moderator. And yet, we have actual Republicans saying Ifill is in the tank. It’s mortifying. If Ifill looks biased, we’ll say so and a bunch of other people will say so. But just publishing a book about race relations after the rise of Obama’s campaign hardly is evidence that she’s going to do something untoward. 

By the way, the strangest part of that press release is where Orrin Hatch complains that Biden is … getting advice from Hillary Clinton. As if this is some sort of shocking or horrifying fact, that Senators get advice from each other.

5:45: Former Clinton operative Phil SInger previews the debate on his blog here and here. Essentially, the two previews sort of have it both ways: one good Palin performance could help save her, but also if any of the Couric-interview Palin shows up, there’s nothing but trouble on the horizon. I think both are true - for different people. As for undecided, I’m betting that if they are still undecided now, they’re unlikely to be persuaded by an uneven performance from either candidate.

5:51: The baseball playoffs are far more compelling than this debate. The Phillies-Brewers game is incredible - and only in the second inning. Shane Victorino grand slam!

5:55: In case you had wanted to know what the British Ambassador’s private thoughts on Obama, well, here you go.

6:00: Here’s Howard Wolfson on the stakes for the debate tonight:

The short answers: Gov. Palin needs to demonstrate a real understanding of complex issues. Simple talking points won’t cut it. She needs to make clear she grasps the difficult policy challenges that the next administration will confront.  if she doesn’t the debate will quickly turn into her own version of Thursday Night Live.

Sen. Biden’s burden is the opposite. We all know he understands the issues. Instead he has to connect with Americans, making the case against John
McCain without condescending to Gov. Palin and angering female voters.  (He will not, for instance, be calling her “Sarah”)

6:03: Good thing Obama and McCain will not be in the buiilding. We wouldn’t want to make anyone uncomfortable.

6:06: Mary Katherine Ham says Palin will be “free” tonight. She continues:

Conventional wisdom says low expectations will behoove Palin, just as a similar soft bigotry worked for Bush, but after several very shaky interviews, it may be that expectations are so low for Palin as to require resuscitation by way of a knowledgeable, confident performance. Passable alone probably won’t do for a slipping ticket, especially with media primed to highlight every mistake.

Expectations would seem to set the bar high for Biden, but everyone knows there’s only one thing Joe Biden does more than ride the Amtrak, and that’s say spectacularly stupid things. Given the slant of the media and his reputation for political pratfalls, I wouldn’t be surprised to see post-debate coverage congratulate him for getting through 90 minutes without referring to his running mate as “clean and articulate.”

I’m not sure a lack of freedom was her problem with Couric. It was more a lack of ability to command any sort of details. She’s a wonderful attack dog (or pitbull, as she referred to herself), but she hasn’t shown anything beyond that so far. Any time she spends being on the attack will just take away from time for her to make her case.

6:39: Sabathia doesn’t make it through 4 in Philly.

6:41: Lafayette at the fellow o8 Bloggers Network blog 2008 Presidential Election Blog previews the debate:

The expectations are super low for SP.  This favors her, big-time.  If she makes a barely passable showing, the story’ll be her come-from-behind triumph.  Or at least her supporters will think so; the media is another story.  Will they gang up on her?  I think so, but I also think they have to be sensitive to their clientele, and they don’t want to be seen picking on her.  So they’ll gladly make fun of whatever is awkward and unbecoming.  I really don’t see how SP can avoid the mockery she is about to get dumped on her.  However, if she’s poised, they vipers can’t unleash their venom, because they’d be picking on her.

And of course Biden does not want to be seen this way either!  But he won’t.  He’s too good of a politician to flub it up.  Democrats don’t have to worry–this one’s all on SP.  Biden will be fine, he’s done this numerous times.  He won’t mess it up.  But he can be fought to a draw by the ordinary gal Pal(in) if she’s passably articulate.

We see this as the opposite: nothing will happen tonight. That hasn’t stopped me from liveblogging, though.

6:45: Dyre Portents, another 08 Bloggers Network Blog, says the expectations will be hard for Biden to overcome:

I don’t think Biden can beat Palin in a popularity contest. He’s somehow going to have to either force Palin to stick to the issues or find a way to repeatedly politely point out that Palin isn’t actually answering the questions. Given his gaffe prone nature and his temperment he may not be up to that particular task.

Biden has a tough job in front of him, no matter how you see the debate.

6:48: Famous alumni of Washington University include Harold Ramis, better known as Egon from the Ghostbusters.

6:49: Washington University soda trivia: The founder of 7-up, Frank Gladney, graduated from Washington University.

6:54: Election Geek is another 08 Network blog.  They’re not convinced that Ifill is a fair moderator. 

7:21: Jennifer Granholm, Democrat governor of Michigan, discussed what it was like to portray Sarah Palin in practice debates with Biden, and what it is like to be a female politician.

7:24: Lindsay Graham and Joe Lieberman are in the house tonight. They’re talking with two other old white guys I cannot identify.

7:30: The parade of semi-important dignitaries has begun. We’re listening so you don’t have to.

7:35: The two old white guys aforementioned are former Republican senators Jack Danforth and Al Simpson.

7:39: Missouri soda trivia part II: Dr. Pepper was introduced at the World’s Fair in St. Louis in 1904.

7:42: The parade of self-important dignities is still talking about sponsors. Meanwhile, I just found out that a Frenchman fur trader named Auguste Chouteau claimed to found St. Louis, but there are doubts to the authenticity of the claim.

7:45: St. Louis is the location of the first debate in 1992 between Clinton, Bush, and Perot. It was also the site of the last debate between Gore and Bush in 2000. And also the second debate between Bush and Kerry in 2004. In other words, this is increasingly a popular site.

7:48: Gwen Ifill uses crutches to take her seat. “In case you were wondering, I fell, I wasn’t pushed.” The crowd is too stunned to react to that line, but it’s basically all she says. Jim Lehrer, comparatively gave a lecture the last time.

7:52: Let me take this opportunity to thank everyone for reading. I’ll try to add a bit more flavor than I did the last time.

7:57: Republicans are dreaming about how Palin can attack both Ifill and Obama in one swing.

7:59: Still 5-2 Phillies over the Brewers in the 8th. I’m guessing a lot of people in Milwaukee will be too upset after tonight’s game to watch any of this debate.

8:00: And away we go. Biden on the left, Palin on the right, which is certainly appropo.

8:03: Bailout bill question to Biden. Biden pivots immediately to criticizing the economic policies of the last 8 years, and then segues into Obama’s criteria for any bailout plan, and then into showing the importance of focus on the middle class. Good answer, if a bit rushed given that the answer is 90 seconds. Palin says the test of the economy should be asking parents at kids soccer games on Saturdays. She’s talking directly into the camera; Biden was looking at Ifill. Hits the same notes as Biden, before seguing into reform. She blames Biden and the Senate for not listening to McCain’s warning on Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae.

8:06: How would you end the polarization in Washington? Biden talks about his experience and bipartisanship. Biden then goes back into criticizing Mccain for being out of touch. Palin says he was talking about the American work force. That’s just not persuasive. She talks about joining a team of mavericks, whereas Obama only votes along party lines. They awkwardly smile at each other while she criticized Biden.

8:09: Palin blames the deception of the predatory lenders for the housing meltdown. She’s going full-blown with the accent, now mentioning Joe Sixpack and Hockey moms banding together. This is going to be something the mainstream media can’t really talk about, but will be either be really persuasive or not persuasive. Biden criticizes McCain for not being on the vanguard of subprime problems, and for his focus on deregulation. Biden is showing a better command of facts, but it’s distracting that he’s only looking at Ifill. He finally ends that with a good story about a guy at a gas station not knowing how much it takes to fill a gas tank. Palin talks at length about Biden and Obama voting for higher taxes. She says “government will have to learn how to be more efficient.” Is there any more meaningless boilerplate possible? Biden goes directly at Palin, criticizing her answer and standard on raising taxes, and saying she did not talk about regulation. Palin answers, and gives an indirect swipe at Ifill, and talks about her record. She mentions the drug industry and tobacco industry when Ifill cuts her off.

8:15: Taxes question. Biden says their tax plan is about fairness. Biden says no one making under 250 k will have a tax raise, and everyone making under 150k will have a tax decrease. Criticizes McCain for tax breaks for corporations, and saying corporations will be taxed at the level they were under Reagan. Palin says that philosophy is a redistribution of wealth, and criticizes Biden for saying taxes are patriotic. Palin says it’s patriotic to say government is not always the answer. Ifill asks about the health care plan, and talks about a tax break for families, and criticizes Obama for wanting the federal government to “take over” health care. Interesting that Obama took so much heat for not including a mandate in the primary, and now is still having his plan called a mandate. Biden says it’s not redistribution, but just fairness. Biden says McCain’s plan will tax health care benefits as income, and calls it “the ultimate bridge to nowhere.” First one liner of the night, from Biden.

8:21: What promises can yo not keep? Biden says you have to slow down foreign assistance. Segues into a discussion of what you cannot slow down: energy jobs, education (which he calls the engine of the economy - he also called the middle class the engine), and a few others. Palin says that McCain is not duplicitous. Palin criticizes Obama for voting for the 05 Energy Bill, and talks about taking on the oil companies in Alaska. Palin makes a joke about not promising much in the five weeks she’s been VP. Biden is stuttering a bit tonight - hopefully not a relapse. Biden says that Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska, but McCain will not. Interesting strategy by Biden.

8:26:Palin talks about “the corruption and greed” on Wall Street, which is a “toxic mess” requiring us to be “ever vigilant.” Is this a Presidential election or a preview of the next Batman movie? Biden dodges questions of a vote, and talks about Obama again being on the vanguard. He talks about bankruptcy courts being able to adjust terms of a mortgage. Biden is now almost always looking at the camera. Palin goes back to the 05 Energy Bill, and talks about energy indepedence, and blames “east coast politicians” for not allowing Alaska to drill; easy retort: even McCain is against drilling in ANWR. The level of irony here is off the charts.

8:30: Climate change question. Palin says she blames man and cyclical forces, but she does not want to argue about causes. Underlines the “all of the above” approach. She’s saying a lot of words, but not either attacking or building a good case. Biden says it’s man made, and if you don’t understand the cause, you can’t find a solution, but says the “cause is man-made; that’s the cause.” Biden talks about renewable energy, clean coal, and nuclear energy, and attacks McCain for not voting for renewable energy, while criticizing McCain for not exporting clean coal technology. Palin corrects Biden on the chant being “drill baby drill” and not “drill, drill, drill.” The rest of her answer is OK, but it drowns in the triteness of that. Biden eventually talks about the problem being carbon emissions.

8:36: Biden supports extending same-sex benefits to couples, and says there will be no distinction. Talks about visitation rights in hospital, joint ownership of property, etc. The property rights are not really that big a problem. Palin says she does not want to redefine marriage, but wants to be tolerant of choices of relationships. Do you support gay marriage? Biden says no, it’s a question of faith. and says that they agree on these civil rights. Palin sort of half-heartedly agrees that they agree.

8:39: Iraq time. Palin talks about the surge, and criticizes Obama for voting to cut off the troops. Mentions Biden criticizing Obama on that vote. Says we are down to pre-surge levels and should put more troops in Afghanistan. This format is going to save her. Biden talks about Obama’s plan being what Bush and Maliki are negotiating. Biden shifts to discussing a timeline, and says McCain also voted to cut off funds. Biden promises to end the war. Palin has a moment of silence, and then “your plan is a white flag of surrender.” Palin says we will know when victory is in sight. Petraeus has said there will not be victory in any conventional sense. Palin mentions Biden’s son, and then hits Biden for saying he’d be honored to run with McCain, and that Biden criticized Obama for not being ready to be C-in-C. Biden says that McCain voted against funding of MRAPS “that protect the governor’s son” and others in Iraq. This is getting a bit personal. Biden then gives a long list of issues on which McCain has been wrong on Iraq.

8:45: Biden talks about the work he’s done in Pakistan, and that any attack in America will come from the hills in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and that competing for the hearts and minds in that region is necessary. Palin says that both Iran and Afghanistan are dangerous, and that Petraeus says Iraq is the central front. She talks at length about how bad it would be if Iran got a nuclear weapon. This would be interesting if all four candidates didn’t agree on it. She then segues into criticizing Obama for willingness to meet with Castro, Ahmadinejad, and Kim Jong Il, who is apparently alive for the purposes of this debate.

8:49: Palin talks about needing to engage in diplomacy, but not at a presidential level, and says diplomacy is doing hard work with allies ready to back up. Biden says the theocracy controls nuclear weapons and security in Iran. Biden says the friends and allies have been the ones saying talk. Biden criticizes McCain for not being willing to talk with the government of Spain, even though they are fighting in Afghanistan.

8:51: Israel! Palin says the two state solution is the solution, and thanks Secy. Rice for working to bring the peace. Says we can never allow a second Holocaust. She then just repeats the talking points. She’s really excited to talk about Israel as a peaceful nation. Biden says that he’s been a friend to Israel and that he would not join the ticket if he thought Obama thought otherwise. He then criticizes the Bush administration policies re: Israel, mentioning Hamas in the west bank and Hezbollah in Lebanon. Biden says the only thing on the march is Iran. Palin is excited to agree that they both love Israel. Who was the last candidate on a major ticket who didn’t? This is ridiculous. Palin says that fingerpointing to the past means you cannot be change. Good lord. There’s no substance. This is purely a rhetorical answer. If you criticize Bush, you can’t be change? Biden is stunned: he wonders how McCain’s policy would be different from that of Bush.

8:56: Palin: Nuclear policy is the “be all end all.” She says using nuclear weapons as a deterrant is a safe usage. For anyone? Good lord. She goes back to Afghanistan, and says that she wants to bring the surge philosophy there, and that is what is different from Bush. Biden says the commanding general in Afghanistan says the surge principles in Iraq will not work in Afghanistan. Well, that settles that. Biden says we spend every three weeks in Iraq what we spend in Afghanistan. His style is undermining him a bit, but he’s way out-fact-checking Palin tonight. He complements Obama for working nuclear proliferation, and says McCain has been opposed. Palin says there are differences, but counter-insurgency principles could work, cites Gen. McClellan, specifically clearing, holding, rebuilding. Uhm, half the country is “clear” already. Biden is thrown off by Palin’s short answer. The General is apparently McKiernan.

9:01: Biden as an interventionist. He says his plan worked in Bosnia. Biden talks about being in camps in Chad, and that rallying the world to act in Darfur. Talks about it being a genocide. She criticizes Biden for being a Washington insider, who was for it before he was against it in Iraq, and that Biden supported McCain and opposed Obama. Palin talks about the importance of divestment in Darfur, but also notes that the legislation she proposed in Alaska has not passed yet. Biden says he never supported McCain’s strategy, and talks about his foresight on being locked down in Iraq. And we’re back into the same discussion. Palin insinuates that Biden is lying, and even refers to the factcheckers, who McCain embraces and ignores depending on their favorability to him. She says McCain will know how to win a war.

9:07: What if you had to become President? Would you follow your wishes or your running mates? Biden says it would be a national tragedy, but he would follow Obama’s wishes. Goes over a laundry list of Obama’s preferences. I’m interested in what Palin will say. Palin says that they are mavericks and will not disagree. Her cheerfulness is odd after Biden’s sobriety. She then tries to be solemn and says she will continue his good work, and talks about bringing reality from Wasilla main street. It’s just a hodge podge of talking points. At least Biden answered the question before he did the same. I still don’t know what her priorities would be if McCain died on issues they disagree on. Biden jumps in to respons and talks about a street in Wilmington, and that Bush and McCain don’t disagree enough. He gives a shout out to other places he used to live. Palin: “Say it ain’t so Joe.” Palin lists Biden’s wife accomplishments (seriously) and then talks about the importance of education. Says her brother is the best teacher, and that kids at his school get extra credit. A flurry of pluck, but nothing else. She says either one of them is top of the line in terms of education. She wants more attention on education. I wonder what she means by that.

9:13: Palin jokes about not knowing what a VP does. She’s happy the Constitution allows a powerful VP. I’m stunned with that line. In reality, though, the history of the Constitution has left a hodge podge of inconsistencies with the VP position. Biden immediately goes back and hits McCain on education. He says he’s going to be giving constant advice on decisions.

9:15: If the VP a member of which branch? Palin says the founding fathers allowed flexibility. Holy crap this is a terrible answer historically. The founding fathers made the LOSING PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE the VP. It was only changed with the amendments, much later. Wow. Terrible, terrible answer. Biden says that Cheney was a terrible VP, and the VP is in the executive branch. He says the only time the VP has authority is a tie in the Senate, and it was a bizarre notion invented by Cheney.

9:18: What good is your experience? Palin says it’s not just her experience, but her connection to the heartland, with a son in the war and a special needs child. This is trite overload. No one that watches a debate for an hour and a half will be convinced by lines like this unless they want to be convinced by it. Talks about Reagan’s city on a hill analogy. Biden talks about writing the crime bill and the violence against women act, and then segues into talking about how his wife died, and other personal problems. He chokes up a bit when mentioning his children maybe not being able to make it. Palin talks about McCain being a maverick, and McCain being in a position of being a maverick, and then lists supporters, like Lieberman, Guiliani, and Romney. Really? Listing supporters, all but one are Republicans? That’s being a maverick? I vet Plouffe smiled at that one. Biden says that McCain is only a maverick on some issues, not the key ones, talking about voting for Bush’s budgets, and opposing health care and education and the war.

9:23: Did you have to change a position based on circumstances? Biden talks about the judicial nomination process. He touts his fight against Bork as showing that ideology matters. Palin says that she “quasi caved” in not vetoing budgets but did not do it because she did not have support. She says they work together up there in Alaska. She looks nervous to finish.

9:26: How do you change the tone in Washington? Biden says he’s worked across the aisle because he never questions the motives of those in the Senate he disagrees with, he just questions the judgment. Palin says that you appoint people regardless of their party affiliation. (Or whether the position is already filled? OK, no more troopergate references…) She talks about reigning in spending and creating jobs.

9:29: Final statement. Palin says that she likes the ability to speak to people without the filter of the mainstream media, as if it’s the filter that’s caused people to be astounded. Making excuses for bungling two interviews in your only debate appearance. She talks about fighting for freedoms, and quotes Reagan as that freedom is always at risk. Biden says this election is the most important election, and the past 8 years have been spent digging a hole. Biden talks about a couple of policy preferences, including protecting the troops.

Grades and thoughts on a podcast to come later tonight. No gaffes for Biden, and only minimally bad for Palin.

Chuck Todd: “You’re may not see this debate have a lot of effect It may just disappear, despite the hype.”

Who said that before hand? That’s right, us. Podcast to come.